Weapons (discussion)
This is how the skill based chart work:

Non SIB:

Damage Profession


Hit Profession


SIB:

SIBNot yetYesNot anymore
Damage profession




 Damage profession  

 Mindforce 

 

Hit Profession

Reload
 


Effective damage:




The effective damage is what you see in the chart.


Witte (talk) - 10-04-2007 16:00:20
2 questions:

1) Are SIB calculations included into this chart yet? I would assume that the effective damage for SIB weps should be higher than the eff. damage for more advanced weps with similar damage, but that doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, it seems to be giving opposite results. Ex. Opalo vs. Jester D-1.

2) How are the Min/Max levels included into your calcs? I checked the calculations above and it doesn't mention any interval calculations (for professional progression). But when I added the max levels for the survival enblade-a and the enknuckles-a, it changed their effective damage. This may be related to the above question, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Thanks in advance!
jackel

jackel (talk) - 06-04-2007 22:28:21
Heya,
Your skills are only taken into account when you select "Personalized stats". This also works for SIB items. Read the help for more info. I will include explanation of how SIB is calculated later.

Witte (talk) - 07-04-2007 01:45:32
I did select "Personalized Stats". At my level, (1), Opalo shows effective damage as 3.1, where as the jester shows at 4. This doesn't seem to be accurate.

You know what... I think I know why it's showing a difference. For SIB weps, the interval has a lower max hit, but a higher min hit (Opalo range is 3.1 - 7.0, but jester is 2.0 - 8.0)... so while the average damage from the SIB wep is lower, the minimum damage I will inflict is actually higher. Then, the SIB Hit and Critical (H&C) bonuses then come into play, but I would still think that the effective damage for SIB weps (with the higher H&C) would still be more than the non SIB weps, with the lower H&C. It seems to be throwing off the calculation for Eco, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me.
jackel

jackel (talk) - 07-04-2007 20:01:22
I am not sure what you mean exactly. What is your damage range on Opalo and Jester exactly? And what is your hit ability? And how much is your level exactly? (Both hit and damage, including the bar)

Witte (talk) - 09-04-2007 00:00:22
OK. I know PE-Wiki runs on estimations, but I would still assume that the calculations should be close to the actual figures +/- the amount of the estimation.

Let me say first that due to the compression algorithm on the page, I can't seem to get things to line up correctly. Sorry.

Here's what I have...

Entered into PE-Wiki :: Laser Sniper (Hit): 1 Ranged Laser (Dmg): 1


PE-Wiki charts (with "Personalized Stats")

Name(Jester D-1) Damage(4) Eco(1.99) SIB(No)


Name(Sollomate Opalo) Damage(3.1) Eco(1.51) SIB(Yes)


Actual Ranges (in game):

Laser Sniper (Hit): 1 + 20% of bar

Ranged Laser (Dmg): 1 + 80% of bar


Actual Opalo Stats:

Damage Range: 3.5 - 7.0 (min damage per hit = 3.5, avg damage per hit = 5.25, max damage = 7)

Hit Ability: 4.7

Critical Ability: 5.0


Actual Jester D-1 Stats:

Damage Range: 2.0 - 8.0 (min damage per hit = 2, avg damage per hit = 5, max damage = 8)

Hit Ability: 0.1

Critical Ability: 1.1


Taking both H&C Abilities into consideration, don't you think the effective damage from the opalo should be higher than that of the Jester? The "Personalized Stats" Option does not reflect this. I guess what I was expecting was that the effective damage of the jester to be right around where it is, but the effective damage of the Opalo to be higher, due to the decrease in misses (or visa versa, depending on your perspective, i.e. increase in misses with the Jester). The current PE-Wiki Eco calculation shows the Jester to be a better option, but I can't imagine that is true due to my (extremely) low Rifle skills.

Thanks!
jackel

BTW, I belive your Damage Modifier calculation is missing a left parenthesis. I'm sure you just copied it down incorrectly, but I thought I'd let you know...

jackel (talk) - 09-04-2007 06:22:19
Tnx for the feedback. To be able to know how the damage works during a SIB, I need to know exactly what the damagelevel is when the SIB starts, and how it progresses untill the end. From your data it seems that you max the damage interval of the opalo before level 5. I have no way of checking this kind of data, and we are depenent on people who actually maxed the gun, and entered it on wiki. It seems normal to me that with low levels, you have a lower effective damage with the opalo then with a jester, since the start damage interval is lower.

So what I need to know is:

  • Damage interval at start of SIB
  • Level when the weapon is maxed
  • Progression during the SIB.

If you can provide me with any of this info, it would be very usefull to make the chart more accurate.

ps, you can also enter decimals in the professions chart. So you can enter your actual levels.

Witte (talk) - 09-04-2007 16:26:52
OK... I have Part 1 of the information to help:

I checked with 2 people ingame and they gave me the damage interval at the start of SIB for the opalo (which is 0.0 levels):

Fella 1 (thx to Crimspet Cooper Coppermate) had Level 0 (66% of bar) DMG and Level 0 (33% of bar) HIT and had a Damage Interval of 3.3-6.6.
Fella 2 (thx to vadio vadio xp) had Level 0 (no bar at all!) in DMG and HIT and had a Damage Interval of 3.2-6.4.

Hopefully that gives a good starting point.

jackel (talk) - 10-04-2007 05:37:48
Alright... Found another helpful soul in PE (thx to Thel Lyper Khaar). He had Level 2 (60% bar) DMG and Level 3 (50% bar) for HIT. His Damage Range was 3.6-7.2.

jackel (talk) - 10-04-2007 06:24:40
Ok this sheds some new light on it. The calculations in the chart assume a start damage interval of 25%-50%. From your data it seems to be 40%-80%. Can you also check the breer? It starts at level 0.9. If this one also has a start interval of 40-80% it might be save to assume all weapons start at this interval. Tnx for the help.

Witte (talk) - 10-04-2007 13:06:14
My damage interval on the Emik X5 when I became 100% for the skill requirement to use it was something close to the 40%-80% mark also, although exact figures I can't give right now.

AkiranBlade (talk) - 10-04-2007 14:04:27
I added the SIB calculations to the first post. I also changed the start interval to 40%-80% instead of 25%-50%. You should get more accurate results now.

Witte (talk) - 10-04-2007 16:00:21
I got some info from yet another helpful avatar (thx to Maky Bear Steppan), who had Level 3 + 1% on HIT and 5 + 65% on DMG. Her Damage Interval was maxxed at 4 - 8, but her Hit Ability was 7.2 and Critical Ability was 7.8. It does indeed seem like level 5 is the correct max.

I also noticed something else. With some SIB weps, I'm able to use them, but I do not yet have the SIB (Damage is 25%-50%), on others, my damage interval shows up with 0.0 - 0.0. I'm assuming that there is a Required level for use and a Required level for SIB. Would that type of info be helpful in this chart?

Just asking!
jackel

jackel (talk) - 12-04-2007 16:31:17
For Non-SIB calcs, you need to cap the Hit modifier... if you start inputting insane levels (100+), your damage/eco becomes invalid... not a big thing (since i'm working on level 4), but necessary nonetheless.

Thanks!


jackel (talk) - 29-04-2007 01:11:45
I only get the bug with very high damage profession, but with hitprofessions it seems to be capped correctly. I will fix it when I have the time. Tnx for reporting.

Witte (talk) - 30-04-2007 14:22:53
Just Informational...

It seems that when using Skill-based calcs, if a wep doesn't have a max level (specifically, SIB weps) the calculation is thrown off on the high end. I'm not sure any calculation correction can be done, but it might be beneficial to get as many level intervals as possible.

jackel (talk) - 15-05-2007 01:14:18
Yes it works like that by design. Cant realy think of a way how to improve it. BTW, did you get any data on the breer(s) yet? I am still not 100% sure all weapons start at a 40%/80% interval. If you could confirm it for more weapons, that would be very helpfull

Witte (talk) - 15-05-2007 01:46:16
I would love it if I could select both skill based and include markup in one go.
Now after selecting one, I need to await a reload before I can tick the next box.

Dutchie (talk) - 16-05-2007 22:14:35
Can you add dam/sec for weapons against armor (incl 50-100%).
Because that would be the real average damage done.

chielsen (talk) - 18-06-2007 18:37:04
H400 does not list markup.
Also if I enter a custom markup it is not taken into account for H400.
Bug or feature ?


Edit: nevermind, misread H400 with H400(L), non-L should indeed not have a % markup

Dutchie (talk) - 02-08-2007 10:54:25
yup was about to type that . I updated the table on top btw. It also shows how reload is calculated.

Witte (talk) - 02-08-2007 11:13:38
The attacks/min for melee, if not all SIB weapons seems to be off. My HA on my loughlin scrathcher two is 4.5 (21.4% through the hit profession SIB on it), and it reads 52/63 attacks/min while the charts here show 61/63 for the same profession level.

Hijacker27 (talk) - 16-08-2007 20:35:15
This is because the "Maxed" data it missing. This is the level where there is no SIB any longer. When you are in the SIB you can determin the maxed level using extrapolation.

Witte (talk) - 16-08-2007 21:05:05
All the data is there, including the maxed field. I just believe the actual attacks/minute calculation for SIB (melee only?) weapons may be off.

Hijacker27 (talk) - 26-08-2007 22:04:41
I am not sure what you are talking about exactly. The Loughlin Scratcher Two (L) has 42 attacks/min at most. And the "Maxed" data is missing as you can see in the link.

What weapon are you talking about exactly? What is your ingame profession level, your progression % and your HA?

Witte (talk) - 26-08-2007 22:48:39
Sorry, I meant the loughlin smacker two and it seems to be fixed now

Hijacker27 (talk) - 30-08-2007 01:06:47
I was looking at decay for Castorian EnKnuckles-A, your stats suggest that it should be 1.56pec,
but when I went to test it out the actual repair cost of 1 hit was 4pec, that's 256% difference.
It seems to me that your estimation was base on the formula: ((Max Cost - Min Cost)*100)/Total Uses,
which doesn't quite work. Any clarification on this issue?
Also section "Other" states that "Good" Durability should be around 1-2.49, which also is quite a bit off.


rus (talk) - 18-11-2007 13:04:34
To test decay of an item properly, see Calculate the decay of an item. When you still get different values, you can correct the value on entropedia, although it is very likely the value already is correct, so only change it when you are 100% sure.

Witte (talk) - 18-11-2007 14:37:55
ahh.. I see. I got Pecs and HPs mixed up.

rus (talk) - 19-11-2007 09:31:55

Hello,

 

Just a small suggestion regarding the weapons columns.

 

Would it be possible to alter the "Total Uses" column in a way that the displayed number is changed when you apply an amp on it ?

 

For example :

You can use P5a (L) alone 22944 times before it decays, this means you can take 206496 ammos on a run with you without having to visit a repair terminal.

But if you use it with a a106 you can only use it 2006 times before the amp is decayed so it means only 20006 ammos.

 

It would be easier to calculate the number of ammos you can use on a run with the setup gun + amp and allow us to also use that information before deciding the setup we plan to use.

 

And while you are at it ...

Why not have a new colum that automatically calculates the number of ammos you can use with a specific gum+amp setup - this one would be even better if the user is allowed to alter current TT value of the gun (very usefull for limited guns that are not always full TT) ?

 

Regards

Arkonen

 

 

Arkonen (talk) - 22-08-2008 09:02:05

Just noticed that the tt knuckles have a much lower eco than they used to in the chart. Witte made the prior update and then it was changed from 1.520 to 1.563 last year. Has anyone verified that the decay really was changed by MA between '05 and '07? That's quite the silent nerf...


     
Doer (talk) - 18-09-2008 23:22:59

@Arkonen, I will look into that

 

@Doer, I think it is a false update. But a new test would be needed to be sure.

Witte (talk) - 20-09-2008 11:00:56

Why skillbased pmg/pec for maxed SIB weapons differs (and differs so much) with nonskillbased dmg/pec for same weapon?

 

breer p1a: skillbased - 2.79 dmg/pec, nonskillbased - 4.03

 

p1a (L) maxed:


Laser Pistoleer (Hit)Combat29.2


Ranged Laser (Dmg)Combat33.48

Prot (talk) - 16-03-2009 16:45:11

Your average damage is 75% of max damage and the hitrate about 92.5%

Witte (talk) - 16-03-2009 21:00:24
Why weapons have filled "Level" section while it's description says "Mindforce level"?
Faalagorn (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

Its likely because people thought it meant either profession level or craft level. It can be removed.

Witte (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59
OK, Witte, i removed all the unnecessary positions. Maybe you should rename it in the chart to something like "Mindforce Level" or "MF Lv" for short (or anything else denoting that this is MF specific) - just to avoid further confusions?

Faalagorn (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

Changed the name.

Witte (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59
OK, so can anyone explain me what's "Markup Based" and "Eco Based" for? And what's the difference?
Faalagorn (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

It is explained in the chartinfo at the top of the chart

 

Markup based calculates the Dmg/PEC including the markup, based on PE-Auction prices or on a custom value.
Eco based calculates the markup value at a custom Dmg/PEC level.

Witte (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

Erf Witte you removed the min/max damage columns i cant find them atleast and i want them back. :/

 

or make a new column with only average damage ie according to the formula above.

Flatline (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

I don't see Critical Hits in your formula for Effective Damage

 

You have max Effective Damage at 69.3% of Maximum for a weapon at 10/10

 

But Critical Hits raise this, meaning that 10/10 weapons are actually yet more efficient when compared with non-SiB ones

P Foxton (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

Correct critical hits are not added because I do not know the effect of them. Also see www.entropiaforum.com/forums/hunting/176241-effect-cha-critical-hits.html

Witte (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

The skill-based calculation shows a small discontinuous decrease in effective damage when you max a weapon.  The equations above don't seem to show a discontinuity at the maxed point.  Does this effect exist, or is it an artifact of a slightly flawed calculation?

 

Example:  Opalo, unamped, skill-based, hit/damage professions 4.99/4.99, effective damage = 5.73 .   Increase hit/damage professions to 5.01/5.01, effective damage = 5.56 .

LathaSerevi (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

Discontinuity was because of a bug, which is fixed now. Thanks for reporting.

Witte (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59
I believe we have enough data on the effect of CHA now to include crits in the effective economy. (Source: www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?228611-Hit-rate-in-2012, among others)

Crit hit rate is 0.002*CHA, or at least it's 2% crit hits when maxed. Each accuracy enhancer adds 0.004 to the crit rate, but IMO there is still too much unknown about the break rate of the enhancers to add them to the weapon chart formula. (Source: www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?227599-accuracy-enh)

Edit: I missed that the formula already includes crits (it uses crit rate = 0.01 + 0.001*CHA, which may be more correct given that crits happen even at low CHA. I would be interested in seeing the data that decision was based on, though. Also, when was it changed? There was no comment to that effect, just the one that crits weren't included because they weren't well enough understood.
Doer (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59
Alright, now that I've had time to think about the formula used for effective damage, I believe it overestimates the damage from crits. This is because it seems that crit hits are only possible if a shot is already a hit. If we look at the proportion of crit hits for maxed weapons, we get a nice 2% of hits, not of shots. If we assume that nice round number is because crits are only found among hits, we can conclude that:
  • accuracy enhancers should increase crit hit rate without increasing hit rate (if this has been found to not be the case, it would be a good counter-evidence to this)
  • crit contribution to damage must be scaled by hit rate (which it currently is not)

The correct final term of the effective damage formula is:

+ MaxDamage(0.01+CriticalHitModifier*0.01)*(0.8+HA*0.01)
(where CriticalHitModifier is also known as CHA/10)

As the formula was changed sometime in the last two years with no comment here, could the responsible party please respond?
Doer (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59
The skill-based weapon chart no longer accurately calculates the HitModifier. The baseline HA is no longer 0 for non-SIB weapons. In essence i think HA starts at 6 now and progresses at the rate of 0.4/10 levels (Hit) professional standing, instead of starting at 0 and progressing at 1/10 levels (Hit). The exact numbers have been confirmed on PCF, i am merely mentioning it so that someone who can alter the code can follow up. This gives very different results on the weapon chart.

Also, to reiterate and clarify my previous posts, there are two much small errors in the EffectiveDamage formula, first that it doesn't compensate for misses in calculating the extra damage from crits, and second in that the coefficient in the term for the crit percentage must be ~0.02 for data from Accuracy Enhancers to make sense. The simplest adjustment is to make the constant (0.01) equal to 0 and the coefficient to 0.02. If someone has measured a significant crit rate at very low CHA, this could be disproved, but it is the best fit for the data i have seen.

So the best formula is:
EffectiveDamage = (0.8 + HitModifier * 0.1) ( AverageDamage + MaxDamage(CriticalHitModifier*0.02) )



Doer (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

Are you sure that it starts at 6? I thought I had read 4 on PCF.

Artrat (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

Seems I'm off-topic, but! When are we to expect addition of melee amps to weapon charts?

Seraver (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

May not be the best place, but didn't know where to put this. Apologize if should go elsewhere.

 

You have an error in your
SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server
version for the right syntax to use near 'Range=65 WHERE ID=2156' at
line 1

 
  

 

is the error I keep getting when trying to edit some currently missing data. In this case, Range on the PBR-47.

 

Anyone know why?

Bal (talk) - 22-02-2019 12:05:59

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